On being Underrepresented in Neuroscience

Mar 14 2011 Published by under Neuroscience, Underrepresented Groups

The Society for Neuroscience is accepting applications, due May 20, for the Neuroscience Scholars Program. The fellowships are to pay for attending the Annual Meeting of the SfN, membership dues and some unspecified stipend for local activities.

The part that contributes to one of our off-again, on-again conversations around these parts is the specification of Eligibility for the program.

Individuals from racial and ethnic groups that have been shown by the National Science Foundation to be underrepresented in health-related sciences on a national basis.

Okay, standard "minority" stuff here. Light the torches, my affirmative action antagonists, light the torches.

Oh, wait....

Individuals who come from a family with an annual income below established low-income thresholds. These thresholds are based on family size; published by the U.S. Bureau of the Census; adjusted annually for changes in the Consumer Price Index; and adjusted by the Secretary for use in all health professions programs.

OR

Individuals who come from a social, cultural, or educational environment such as that found in certain rural or inner-city environments that have demonstrably and recently directly inhibited the individual from obtaining the knowledge, skills, and abilities necessary to develop and participate in a research career. This is most applicable to undergraduate candidates.

So let us review. A special opportunity for those that are underrepresented in the Neurosciences to get a small helping hand up.


[ UPDATE: The cartoon is from Barry Deutsch ]

Eligibility is based on underrepresentation, not skin tone.

In particular, the socio-economic and impoverished schooling/environment criteria are totally and completely applicable to men and women alike who self-identify as "white".

So anyone who complains on and on that lower-class, socioeconomically disadvantaged whites are ignored or disenfranchised by affirmative action efforts are, yet again, falsified.

Given this, their motivations for continually and loudly opposing affirmative action efforts on the alleged basis of this principle are a little suspect, are they not?

__
Illustration grabbed from The Hermitage

76 responses so far

  • Funky Fresh says:

    Looks like Isabel's going to SfN.

  • Isabel says:

    "Falsified" by this one recent/current example? Very scientific. And how long has this approach been taken? It's quite recent trend isn't it? Motivated by the very complaints you are now deriding. Wow, you really hate them lower class whites dontcha? Well, personally, I think this is great, just hope it isn't too little too late.

    So, when is Scientopia going to join the trend? Or the academic blogosphere in general? I have never happened on a diversity discussion here that included the above philosophy. Rather I just see a lot of snobs fueling the conflicts by making "inbred redneck" jokes.

  • Isabel says:

    This comment is so totally appropriate! So PC! Yep, what are those rural whites whining about?

  • DrugMonkey says:

    Nearing a couple of decades at the very least Isabel. If you want to take credit for this, that's fine by me. Just stop pretending this isn't *now* the case.

  • DrugMonkey says:

    "inbred"? We've narrowed your problem down to a couple of retweeted #redneckgenomics Tweets but I don't seem to recall the inbreeding part that has you particularly exercised.

  • Alex says:

    Income is measurable. It doesn't always tell the full story, but at least it's measurable. Ethnicity, well, it can be complicated in many cases, but there are still plenty of cases where you can come up with a reasonable category designation and look to see if the category is represented or under-represented. But this:

    Individuals who come from a social, cultural, or educational environment such as that found in certain rural or inner-city environments that have demonstrably and recently directly inhibited the individual from obtaining the knowledge, skills, and abilities necessary to develop and participate in a research career.

    If income or ethnicity didn't already cover you, so you have to appeal to this one, this is just an open invitation for every self-pitying white college student to explain how hard he had it. California tried this once in the 1990's, when they asked high school students to explain hardships they'd suffered. The outpouring of self-pitying essays from white suburban kids was reportedly quite awful.

  • Alex says:

    BTW, my avatar looks like something from Space Invaders! Awesome!

  • Marcus says:

    I was on one of those "minority things" about a decade ago. It was not race specific. SES was included and there were some white folks in the program. I believe the program had been that way since the beginning, which was in the 90s. I'll have to check to make sure on that.

  • Isabel says:

    Sounds pretty specific to me - i.e. suburbs wouldn't be covered.

    "just an open invitation for every self-pitying..." funny how suddenly ya'll sound like Steve Sailor.

  • Isabel says:

    Yes my problem. Right. I think I've made it pretty clear that it's a societal problem. It's not about you or me being right, or having a problem, or having a favored group etc.

  • Alex says:

    Isabel, it is in the nature of teens and college students (of every background) to be self-pitying. Even when the complaints are meritorious, the fact remains that teens are often self-pitying.

  • gerty-z says:

    Isabelle, FWIW, I grew up in a rural place that is often the subject of redneck jokes. I'm not sure how my family's income related to the poverty line as this was not info shared w/ the kids. But I know we got a lot of help from the church and I wore a lot of hand-me-downs. I don't know if that "counts" for you, or not. Yes, I have been lucky to have been able to escape and move up the ladder. But I suspect that it would have been even harder if I was not white. I don't think that diversity is a zero-sum game. ANYthing that removes barriers helps everyone, IMO.

  • gerty-z says:

    that IS awesome!

  • Isabel says:

    "But I suspect that it would have been even harder if I was not white."

    And so your point is, rural whites don't deserve help up the ladder, or respect from Drugmonkey? What *is* your point? How is it in opposition to anything I have ever said?

    And I guess you are a good sport who chuckles alog when DM cracks jokes about your family being inbred. To each his own I guess. I find it offensive.

  • Isabel says:

    Yeah, it's just a good-natured jab at teens. Now if someone had implied that AA is “just an open invitation for every self-pitying…person from X minority group..." THAT would be vile racism!

  • Isabel says:

    I'll tell my young relative who is being deployed to Afghanistan in two months that everything is totes cool now, no need to risk his life to get a decent education. But I'm glad your Jewish male friends and other upper-class whites from south of the border can check "hispanic" on those grant proposals. Now there's a group that's underrepresented in academia, yep.

  • Isabel says:

    So what is your point here DM? Why haven't I received my apology yet? Are you still insisting that rednecks rule the world, or that all whites are at the top of the ladder? Maybe you feel a little guilty that your own group is astronomically over-represented in academia, to the extent that it would be next to impossible for other groups to be fairly represented. Gee if I were you I'd keep quiet about it and thank my lucky stars. Why stir the pot??

  • Loonabel, you fucken wacko. No one is gonna apologize to you or promise anything to you or anything of the sort, and other than me, and DoucheMonkey, and maybe Funky Fresh, no one else at the blogges you pollute with your deranged obsessive ranting has even the slightest idea what the fucken fucke you are going on about.

  • Alex says:

    Well, my comment is about a universal human trait, while the hypothetical alternative comment suggests a particular pathology in a particular group.

    But other than the massive differences I guess that the comment I made and the comment that I didn't make are exactly the same.

  • Isabel says:

    The offensiveness of the term has been so extensively discussed on your blog that it is shocking that you would spread such jokes around, whether it was you or one of your buddies that made up the inbred one. I definitely saw it, and it certainly is a standard, despite the fact that it is not true. Not only is it not true, the stereotype of southerners being inbred is partly due, ironically, to the pathetic portraits taken by WPA photographers, which were intended to educate the world about their plight.

    So, according to DM there is no discrimination as far as AA for undergrads. Now, how can we make sure they have support systems when they get there, and help underrepresented whites get fair representation in grad schools and Ivies? On the blogosphere? And how about we start by not disrespecting them, as all three bloggers on this site have done? Physioprof made his opinion clear - they deserve their lot. Bikemonkey refuses to budge. What is the next step?

  • Isabel says:

    Except that you said "every self-pitying white college students....outpouring of self-pitying essays from white suburban kids" Sounds like a particular group to me.

  • Isabel says:

    Oh, and the white dude in the comic is obviously upper class. Part of the class that promoted racism to begin with, in order to maintain dissension between the lower class groups. Of course, all sophisticated liberals know this, but they somehow keep forgetting it...

    Here's my comic: You know that joke going around about the oligarch who sits at a table with a tea partier and a union guy in front of a plate of 8 cookies? He takes 7 cookies and says to the tea partier "Hey that union guy's going to take your whole cookie! Better watch that guy!" So replace the oligarch with an upper class white, and the tea partier with a black guy, and the union guy with a lower class white.

  • gerty-z says:

    my point would be 2-fold:
    1. you seemed to imply that all of Scientopia (and perhaps the world) are un-represented of folks that grew up poor and white. I have presented one datum that are not consistent with this view.
    2. diversity is not a zero-sum game. Just as I would like to improve access to rural whites for upward mobility, so would I like to see other minorities have better representation. But, in my experience the barriers are higher if you are not white. SO, helping the minorities to lower barriers ALSO helps the white rural folk.

    I absolutely HATE the idea that if some groups "are getting a better deal" that it means others are getting screwed. There is no reason for one minority group to be scared of another. That is fucked up.

  • What is the next step?

    Loonabel, the next step is for you to stoppe polluting every fucken blogge that hasn't yet banned you with your incessant drivel and start your own motherfucken blogge, where you can argue to your heart's content for your political goals.

  • drugmonkey says:

    HAHA, you are hilarious Isabel. Of course our US national politics is entirely inconsistent with this. It is more accurately stated as the oligarch telling the lower class white that the black guy is stealing his cookie.

    Now when are you going to address why the lower class white guy keeps right on falling for it again, and again, and again...

    (and anyway, wasn't it a dozen cookies? where's the other 4 cookies Isabel????)

  • drugmonkey says:

    Maybe you feel a little guilty that your own group is astronomically over-represented in academia, to the extent that it would be next to impossible for other groups to be fairly represented.

    I feel no guilt whatsoever that my "group" is "astronomically over-represented" in academia. Of course, since I inhabit many "groups" of relevance to this discussion, including those based on sex, gender identity, socio-economic background, native smarts, age, country of origin, apparent skin tone, physiognomy, religious affiliation and the like.. I am unclear on just which one you conclude makes it "impossible" for "other groups" (presumably those which I am categorically excluded from?) to be "fairly represented".

  • drugmonkey says:

    As far as I am aware, Isabel, my "Jewish male friends" do not check any special boxes on NIH grant applications.

  • drugmonkey says:

    whether it was you or one of your buddies that made up the inbred one

    So you admit that you are blaming me for the actions and/or statements of others?

    how can we make sure they have support systems when they get there, and help underrepresented whites get fair representation in grad schools and Ivies? On the blogosphere?

    Well, I suppose someone who was so motivated could start blogging and doing what she could to raise awareness of the problem. Promote opportunities such as the Neuroscience one referenced in the above post. Remind people where apparent "minority" opportunities are in fact targeted at lower socio-economic classes as well. Participate in DonorsChoose and focus on predominantly white, lower socioeconomic class schools to highlight for her readers. And above all else, take the mickey out of right wing Republican policies that systematically disadvantage the lower socioeconomic white groups that vote for them.

    ...but that might be too productive of a suggestion, I suppose.

  • Zuska says:

    This I would have to agree with.

    The wedge in class politics that keeps working class whites from uniting with working class brown folk (and very, very poor people, whether they are white, black, or Hispanic) has two sources of strength that keep it in place:

    (1) the notion that those Others will take the cookie you've worked so hard for (whether the Others are tainted by being brown, or by being extremely poor, or both);

    (2) and the promise, held out by the oligarchs, that someday, you, Working Class White Person, could be one of them (but not if you insist on making alliances with the socialistic anti-American policies of those poor/brown people that will destroy our country and cheat you of your chance to be very, very rich someday).

  • Isabel says:

    Right! Equality for under-represented whites is my thing and my responsibility!

    You know we normally evaluate programs by their results, not by evidence of one attempt.

    The whole point is this: saying things like whites are favored, or over-represented is meaningless.

    "And above all else, take the mickey out of right wing Republican policies that systematically disadvantage the lower socioeconomic white groups that vote for them. "

    That's exactly what I am doing here. I've explained this a hundred times. I am working at the source, by exposing the hatred of poor and other lower class whites that drives them to the Republican party. Why do you want to dictate my approach?

    I am also exposing your hypocrisy. That part is where I get a little more personal satisfaction, as it's something I have had to silently endure my whole life.

  • Isabel says:

    Even those from latin american countries? I seem to remember this being discussed approvingly here. It might have been namnezia who was told by their advisor to check the box? It was a post about whether to take advantage of those things. I don't have time to look it up.

  • Isabel says:

    "SO, helping the minorities to lower barriers ALSO helps the white rural folk."

    How does that work? I don't understand the rest of your comment.

    "you seemed to imply that all of Scientopia (and perhaps the world) are un-represented of folks that grew up poor and white. I have presented one datum that are not consistent with this view."

    Maybe I seem to imply that to you, but it is nonsense. One anecdotal example???

    "diversity is not a zero-sum game."

    And I asked how this was related to anything I have said. Please cite something where I said whites should be helped and others should not??

  • Isabel says:

    Jews.

  • Isabel says:

    "It is more accurately stated as the oligarch telling the lower class white that the black guy is stealing his cookie."

    Yes! It works both ways and goes back and forth. But it's the same thing, and the lower class guy is still missing in the comic.

    The black guy and he lower class white guy, being not stupid, but less sophisticated, both fall for it and the rich white guy walks off with the cookies.

  • Isabel says:

    Zuska, everytime I have tried to make alliances in a casual way with PoC on here by pointing out our similar situation I have been called a vile racist who should shut up and listen.

    And you seem to demand a sophistication of one group that you do not demand of the other. Also I think your secription is outdated. People are more worried about simple economics these days. Maybe your kinfoolk are all racists though. I am sorry to hear that.

    "(whether the Others are tainted by being brown, or by being extremely poor, or both)"

    or white. You won't be a success because the whites steal everything, and those rednecks in your socioeconomic class are the biggest racists of all - watch out for them!

    And PoC are not driven by the idea that they can/deserve to be rich someday? Please.

  • Isabel says:

    "My goals"? - we do not share the same goals?

  • Isabel says:

    From "Take the Money and Run"

    Namnezia says:
    January 24, 2011 at 1:23 pm
    @DM: “Once one is on the independent research track one is duking it out in open competition anyway..”
    I’m almost certain that checking that “hispanic” box in my CAREER award application factored into my success. Especially after the program officer told me to make SURE I filled that part in. But hey, I think it is foolish not to take any advantage one can get, and I don’t think my award was any less deserving than the next fellow’s.

    http://namnezia.wordpress.com/2010/07/16/of-color/

  • becca says:

    Hey DM, did we remember to send you the welcome basket with matzah for passover? Or did you just get the one with muffins next to the handbook for world academia domination?

    Isabel- of course actual Jews feel guilt for being overrepresented in academia! As a Jew, "most of my self-confidence is based on how good I am at doubting myself"*.

    But what do you want us to be overrepresented in? Basketball? Yeah, that'd work out real well for everyone.

    *HT: Steven Colbert

  • Isabel says:

    Becca,

    It is unfair of you to suggest I think you are after world domination. Again with the guilt by association or paranoid inference. I am truly weary of being labeled a racist, an MRA, a white supremacist, a reader of Stormfront, anti-semite etc. It's offensive, and I am tired of having to google all these terms. Although the Wikipedia entry on anti-semitism was pretty enlightening. And no, I read the whole damn thing, and it didn't say pointing out the success of American Jews was anti-semitic.

    It's just when whites from under-represented groups keep being told by members of over-represented groups that because our skin color is similar we are all part of an over-represented group, so we should all feel guilty about it together....and that in fact, we as a group are not as educated an enlightened as the over-represented group, and because of this pig-ignorance we are even more responsible for the under-representation of PoC.

    Thanks,

    Isabel

    ps. And yeah tired of being told we should never refer to Jews as a group, or a person's membership in that group*, even when certain "enlightened" holier than thou Jews make "redneck" jokes in a public forum, despite being well-educated about the offensiveness of the term.

  • Funky Fresh says:

    Why do you suppose he is upper class, Lonnabel?

    (I will admit that when I enlarged the comic, I noted a True Religion label on his jeans.)

  • drugmonkey says:

    Oh *thaaaat* group.

  • becca says:

    Actually, I, personally, am after world domination. But that's due to growing up watching Pinky and the Brain, not to being Jewish.

    Here's the thing. Pointing out statistical overrepresentation? Not anti-semitic (and I didn't see anyone saying it is).

    But since you read the wikipedia, I'm sure you are familiar with this part:
    "nationalistic antisemitism, citing Voltaire and other Enlightenment thinkers, who attacked Jews for supposedly having certain characteristics, such as greed and arrogance"
    In other words, to assume that someone is a Jew because they have 'an "enlightened" holier than thou' attitude... is well, like Charlie Sheen. It's a bizarre choice of words, at best. And borderline antisemitism at worst.

  • I believe the world is a balanced place, and since George Bush doesn't care about black people (per Kanye West), DrugMonkey doesn't give a damn about mayonaise sandwich eatin' cracka ass crackas like me.

    And sorry to contradict you Isabel, these programs have been around for a while and if it weren't for them, I probably wouldn't have made it through college.

  • isabel says:

    Who said I assumed anything? Man, the assumptions people make! I was referring to DM and CPP who have said they were Jews.

    It is so exhausting responding to comments that assume I said something I did not say.

    "Pointing out statistical overrepresentation? Not anti-semitic (and I didn’t see anyone saying it is). "

    Really? I sure did. So lets spell it all out.

    At least I am assured you won't mind when next time someone complains about over-representation of "whites" in positions of influence, law, media, academia, etc, and I point out the percentage that are Jews. Because a lot of time that percentage is pretty damn big. But it is okay for some inconsistent reason. More importantly, it reveals that non-Jewish whites are often as under-represented as "minority" groups (the non-Jewish ones).

  • isabel says:

    Oh my god I am going to kill myself!!!! It's like having a discussion with Stepford people, on Groundhog Day, where I have to explain the same simple concept over and over again to people who seem on the surface to be intelligent.

    Please stop accusing me of things I did not say. You picked the most minor point you could, and picked a fight with me. They have ALWAYS been around. I have used them also, and I am pretty sure I am older than you. So go to hell people who have nothing better to do than pick fights with *me*. Jeez. I just think it's a weak example. I was challenging DM's "problem solved" conclusion. Do you have an example of an actual quota system that requires admission or hiring of a certain amount of lower class whites? According to tenured Radical we can't have this because it's rude to ask about. Haha.

    And really? Revenge? Yeah, that's real healthy, like when people who have been abused grow up and abuse their own kids. Yep, it's all about balance. But I agree, you might be joking but that is partially what is going on. My whole philosophy is that we need to take an honest look at what is really going on, how things came to be the way they are, and BREAK THE CYCLE. For that I have been called every epithet in the book.

    Here's what I'd like to see before I agree with DM. Statistics on how many lower class whites are in academia. *On how successful these programs have been*. How many are in CPP's lab? DM's? Who are on the academic blogosphere. In politics. Ivies. Law. TV writers and producers. Oligarchs. Movie directors. Editors. On scientopia. Evidence of recruitment to all of the above. To grad school programs. . Stats on grad schools. Programs at colleges that specifically give help and support to such groups. Organizations that fight discrimination specifically in these groups. Examples of radical leftist progressive radio stations that include lower class whites in the list of under-represented groups they recruit to their training programs. Examples of serious discussions of class divisions within the white race on these programs and in the academic blogosphere....etc etc. Hopefully you are starting to get the idea. (clue-sort of like what we expect, and get, with other oppressed groups).

    Please also provide: Discussions of racism in other cultures. Discussions of market dominant minorities and the resulting racial conflicts around the world. On liberal/leftists blogs that is. It's like we are all in fucking kindergarten when it comes to our ideas of race and racism and classism. (Racism=an aberration that occurred in the American south and South Africa mostly due to ignorant rednecks). Oh yeah add participation of Jews in the international slave trade and ownership of black slaves by Native Americans and torture techniques of NA's to that list. Yeah, liberal progressive media outlets are so much more balanced than Fox News.

    The human race is fucked up, and is never going to evolve while we all sit around blaming whites and making redneck jokes.

    I'm sure these references are all at your fingertips, since you claim I am "wrong". I am looking forward to seeing them!

  • BikeMonkey says:

    My graduate program had one white BSD prof dude who described endlessly how he had emerged from a poor Appalachian background to earn a Harvard PhD with some founders of -ology. He was under the impression that this demonstrated there could not possibly be any systematic barriers to advancing in academics...save being too stupid.

    We did not have any African-American profs in the department at all. Hmm, come to think of it they still don't have any.

  • BikeMonkey says:

    And can I just say...daaamn Isabel, you been eating your Wheaties lately or what?

    Top form, top form.

  • drugmonkey says:

    The food is nice...but what's all this "moy-yell" stuff PP and PalMD keep talking about?

  • drugmonkey says:

    Who said I assumed anything? Man, the assumptions people make! I was referring to DM and CPP who have said they were Jews.

    give the pseud and all, is it really very likely that you are remembering correctly? I mean, I barely even acknowledge I'm male...

  • drugmonkey says:

    Thanks to a comment from bill at the Sb blog, the author of the cartoon has been identified.

    http://www.leftycartoons.com/a-concise-history-of-black-white-relations-in-the-united-states/

  • Isabel says:

    concise? Simplistic maybe. My version is better, although I like DM's suggestions. A dozen cookies is better, and I like the second point of view, showing that it's two sides of the same coin.

    So it should be a double panel. In the first frame the conservative oligarch takes eleven cookies and tells the white person that the black person wants to steal his cookie; and in the second panel the liberal oligarch takes his eleven cookies and tells the black person that the white person wants to steal their cookie.

  • Isabel says:

    Thanks. Hey I read in that Wikipedia article that blacks and hispanics are four times as likely as whites to be anti-semitic. What gives? Since you are black I figure you can explain it. After all you expect me to explain the voting patterns of lower class whites. Fair is fair. 🙂

    Seriously though, it was a pretty disturbing article, because the resurgence of anti-semitism in Europe is apparently due entirely to Muslim immigrants, even their children. It's to the point that some holocaust survivors are afraid to speak in schools.

  • Isabel says:

    Wow I would get that memory problem checked out. Why do I remember what you write on your blog better than you do? I'm not looking it up for you this time. Maybe you were discussing the holidays or something?

    Funny, I've been reading Doris Lessing's Shikasta and the parallels to my experience here are eerie, from the slanted, inflexible political views to the weird amnesia everyone seems to have. I wonder of Doris Lessing was an anti-semite?

    Well, hopefully we won't suffer Shikasta's fate.

  • This place is fucken riddled with Non-Real Americans, what with those two fucken dirty jews Comrade PhysioProf and DrugMonkey, and that fucken shifty schwartze BikeMonkey!

  • Isabel says:

    Huh?

  • Isabel says:

    Can anyone recommend any academic blogs that have liberal leanings, discuss politics, world affairs and socioeconomic class conflicts, and where people don't hate/blame/scapegoat or use vile slurs for ANY group of people, including white people, esp. lower class whites?

    Thanks!

    Isabel

  • Isabel says:

    Huh? Wow, I really did hit a nerve didn't I? Yeah, I'm supposed to take it in stride as you dish it out freely, but you're all fragile flowers I guess. Too bad I'm not a fucked up bully like you, I can't even enjoy your obvious distress.

    Also, your answer is revealing. Perhaps there isn't such a corner of the academic blogosphere, where issues are passionately discussed while treating everyone, including all groups, religions, etc. with respect.

    But still holding out hope. Looking forward to your suggestions!

  • drugmonkey says:

    Well that's one, singular. So what is your point? That this person probably doesn't have an accent, any noticeable differences in communicating, any differences in thoughts, approaches, personality, impact on junior scientists and peers, or anything else that is associated with being hispanic...because all anyone can see is "dude's jewish"?

  • HAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!! Yeah, Loonabel, you "really did hit a nerve"!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • BikeMonkey says:

    Why do you assume that I speak for "blacks"?

  • samantha says:

    I come for the well-thought-out, intelligent blogging and discourse.

    I stay for the lolz.

  • Cashmoney says:

    Too bad about the first, though...

  • Isabel says:

    I already explained my little joke. Are you all drinking?

    I just don't know why CPP hates whites so much, when it's really the PoC he needs to watch out for (according to the Wikiperia article. Maybe it was written by someone from Stormfront?)

  • Isabel says:

    yeah right. Like you really banned me for being less than hilarious for five minutes.

  • Isabel says:

    Being from "south of the border" says NOTHING about need. Whites and Jews tend to be upper class in the majority of Latin American countries (unless Razib is lying). That's another thing that needs more acknowledgment around here.

    "doesn’t have an accent, any noticeable differences in communicating, any differences in thoughts, approaches, personality, impact on junior scientists and peers, or anything else that is associated with being hispanic…"

    Everyone brings something unique. It sounds in fact like you are saying Hispanic have a certain type of all those qualities, which is offensive. We need people from all walks of life that is true! Btw who told Juniper I had a black professor? I never had one. That chick sure can hold a grudge!

    And man people sure can twist things! Now she's claiming that I said white indentured servitude was as bad as black slavery! I NEVER said that! Oh well, I'm sure everyone will run to her side. The worstest (that's for you Juniper) thing is she complained about my writing. Hey her writing is affected and pretentious. And I have a third rate intellect?? And I am a white supremacist who would enjoy Stormfront? What did I say about chasing lower class white people (who haven't renounced their past to the point that they don't mind listening to upper class people tell redneck jokes and describe their relatives as pig-ignorant) to the conservative side? Here's an example in action!

    Hey try sticking to the issues! I think the real problem is so many people are humor challenged. Thankfully I don't have that problem.

  • drugmonkey says:

    Isabel, you are quite exceptionally mistaken if you think the only goal of affirmative action is to help those wth the greatest "need" in rank order. The goal of affirmative action policies are to reduce systematic barriers to equal participation. The "need" of one individual is but part of this picture.

    Of course you do know this, but you are pretending not to because it is inconvenient to your position.

  • Isabel says:

    Do you have a reference for that? For the goals of affirmative action? How does it apply specifically to this example? Thanks?

  • becca says:

    Hispanic rate of antisemitism is not nearly as high in hispanics that were born in the US.
    Irrespective of race, antisemitism goes down with increased education. This is the sekrit reason jews support affirmative action for racial minorities- if we can just get them through graduate degrees, their rates of anti-semitism will drop like a stone! (among those with postgrad degrees, it's 5%)
    ;-P
    Both of these factors suggest that it's possible *increased exposure to Jews leads to less antisemitism*.

    Interestingly, the ADL didn't find any relationship between religion and antisemitism. So either they didn't break out Muslims as a group (unlikely, but possible if the N for their sample would have been too small), or American Muslims aren't any more antisemitic than American Christians or American Atheists. That said, I don't know if the ADL survey looked at *religious service attendance*, which is a real factor in e.g. African American's negative views toward male homosexuals.

    Also irrelevant to antisemitism- economic distress and political party/affiliation.

    In other words, Isabel, poor whites (in general) are not more likely to agree with the statement: "Jews have too much power in the U.S. today. "
    Since, in general, lower class whites are NOT bigoted, you can't claim to be representing lower class whites when you fixate on Jews in power. So what the fuck is your excuse?

  • Cashmoney says:

    "riddled"? WTF does that mean?

  • Isabel says:

    I am fixated?

    "”
    Since, in general, lower class whites are NOT bigoted, you can’t claim to be representing lower class whites when you fixate on Jews in power. "

    What a bizarre statement.

    Representing? I am representing someone?

    Fixating?

    Honestly I appear to be the only person around here who can follow a thread!

  • Juniper Shoemaker says:

    That said, I don’t know if the ADL survey looked at *religious service attendance*, which is a real factor in e.g. African American’s negative views toward male homosexuals.

    Interjection: I unsubscribed from Sam Harris's e-newsletter immediately after he denounced the homophobia of "the African-American community" to a meek journalist on NPR. He was righteously angry at "the African-American community" on behalf of his gay friends, he said. 'Cause, you know, us worthless niggers don't have us no gay friends! It made me so angry.

    What the hell is "the African-American community", anyway? Does it automatically include someone such as myself, who didn't grow up with other black people and who barely knows any other black people now? Shit. As far as I'm concerned, there is no "African-American community". Black individuals belong to different communities just as individuals of other races do. Some black individuals belong to stereotypical communities of churchgoing homophobes who subscribe to plantation mentality. Again, I can say the same thing about non-black individuals.

    Suffice it to say that I am glad that you underscored "religious service attendance" as a determinant of bigotry against gays, Becca. I am pretty sure that religion does more to foster homophobia than "race" does. Even if the culprit is culture, and not religion per se, that doesn't change the fact that culture isn't biologically transmitted.

  • Juniper Shoemaker says:

    What did I say about chasing lower class white people (who haven’t renounced their past to the point that they don’t mind listening to upper class people tell redneck jokes and describe their relatives as pig-ignorant) to the conservative side? Here’s an example in action!

    Wait a minute. This is crazy. This statement is crazy for multiple reasons. Here are but a few reasons why this statement is crazy: 1) It implies that you are representative of all lower-class white people, which is patently untrue; 2) it implies that "lower-class white people" embrace "conservative" politics because they're helpless victims, which is arguable at best and 3) it asserts that I can't call your racist comments racist without being responsible for "chasing" a mass of people who aren't you to "the conservative side", which is just fucked up.

    I have spent and will spend too much of my time swallowing other people's racist comments with a forced smile to take this garbled argument seriously. You can't make a logically coherent argument. You have delusions of grandeur. You can't take personal responsibility for your actions. I have contemptuous pity for you.

  • Isabel says:

    Here it is again (from upthread). And really, my head is still spinning from this last comment to me, becca.

    "At least I am assured you won’t mind when next time someone complains about over-representation of “whites” in positions of influence, law, media, academia, etc, and I point out the percentage that are Jews. Because a lot of time that percentage is pretty damn big. But it is okay for some inconsistent reason. More importantly, it reveals that non-Jewish whites are often as under-represented as “minority” groups (the non-Jewish ones)."

  • Isabel says:

    "1) It implies that you are representative of all lower-class white people, which is patently untrue"

    Actually no, as I am not a conservative.

    "it implies that “lower-class white people” embrace “conservative” politics because they’re helpless victims, "

    no, no, no just no. Maybe if you hadn't killfiled me...

    "3) it asserts that I can’t call your racist comments racist without being responsible for “chasing” a mass of people who aren’t you to “the conservative side”, which is just fucked up. "

    What racist comments? I ever made any that I am aware of.

    "I have contemptuous pity for you."

    Good. maybe your pity will help defuse your rage and you will climb off my back for a while. It's getting tedious.

  • Juniper Shoemaker says:

    It is not half so tedious as your total lack of originality and reading comprehension.

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